ParaMan

It saddens me to se so many people, uploading pictures, expecting others to critique, comment and rate their photo's, but can not be bothered to respectfully to do the same to other users.

I'm no expert on photography, but I'm not a beginner either. Many times a week a go through most of the newly uploaded photo's and comment, evaluaten, and critique them to my best ability. But I've come to the conclusion that, my critique, advice, and comments are unappreciated.

We are all here to learn, via the forums, eachother and via other peoples comments, evaluations and critiques, stating what is good in a certain picture, and/or what could be done to make this picture better.

Some of us are at a higher level of photography than others, but we're all here for the same reasons; We love photography, we love being creative, and we like showing "our masterpieces" to others hoping that they like them too, but are we to know what others think of our photo's when they log on, and upload a few picture and disappear, never to be seen again.
What is the point?

Maybe it's me taking things too seriously. Not long ago we were a few photography-enthusiasts that almost daily uploaded photo's and commented and brought critique to each-others pictures, sadly the majority of these people seem to have left us. My guess is that they got fed up, with commenting, and rating other peoples photo's, without getting anything in return.

I have rated, commented, and critiqued countless pictures, and will continue to do so, in order to help others, and myself to develop our individual photograply skills to higher levels. All I ask in return, is for people to be more aware of other users and their photo's, comment, rate and critique their pictures and tell them what you like in a photo, what you don't like, and give your opinion and advice to what could be done to make a certain picture better.

I hope this thread is read by the most of the users at www.freeimagebrowser.com so we can spur others to join this community and make it bigger, better and more fun for all .

Please think about it. You're comments could help someone to become the new Daguerre, Ansel Adams or David LaChapelle

With high hopes for an even better photography-comminity than www.freeimagebrowser.com already is.

Yours Truly
Steve Wilden
a.k.a.

ParaMan

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The weirdo Steve - ParaMan

rob.chop

seems there's not too much traffic these days steve, maybe everyone is just tired, tired of the double standards, the "special person" treatment and the nonchalant repetitive shit sandwich critique. sorry but this is how i feel and i think a lot of other people feel the same, hence the no traffic?! Maybe i'm just blowing bubbles, but this is from someone that joined this sight to share, learn, and experience other peoples photo's, and over the last few months this sight has turned from something i enjoyed to something that is somewhat of a chore, with the feeling of, "whats wrong with my photo this time". anyways, this will be the last time i post a photo at this site, and regrettably, if someone should ask for a place where they can post photo's and learn and be creative and get quality critique withought being shunned, this site will not be on the tip of my tongue. unfortunately with this being said, there are a few people that really shine on every occasion and it is these people that are unfortunately in the same basket as the bad apples.

Julianne

I have to agree with Rob to a degree that this this site's photoblogs are not upholding the core goal that it was designed for. The Photoblog was not designed for professional photographers alone, but for hobby photographers as well (just like Photo FX was designed for all photographers, regardless of the expense of their equipment or the seriousness of their picture taking).

When someone who takes pictures solely for the joy of it, for the experience of it, to capture a moment/a mood/an emotion and they share it only to be constantly bombasted with criticism and negativity, it robs them of the beauty of the thing and eventually, the passion behind it.

It is unfortunate that so many of us who came to the forum and Photoblogs to learn in an enlightened and friendly atmosphere should feel this way because this is not the Visualizer way. It truly saddens me that because of those who are hypercritical and overbearing, many who had so much to contribute have chosen to go still and silent (myself included).

I can only hope that our pleas will be heard and something will be done about it.

Darren

This is hardly VIG news, and should go into a more appropriate forum. I can easily understand the frustration for those people who see members coming here to harvest and never seed, however, this is up to people themselves how interactive they want to be. People who never interact should probably not expect that much publicity, it's a basic fact. Those who do interact, should be greatful for all the publiciity they get - it may not always be in comments, but everytime you comment a photo, you always link back to your photoblog through your avatar - and let there be no doubt, visitors will always notice this. So people who are not that active other than commenting their own work, are really cheating themselves out of good publicity.

Interacting is a win win situation!

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Project manager
Visualizer Image Group

"Don't judge yourself on how far you have come,
It's better to get somewhere than nowhere"

BevB

This is very sad news.....i i have to admit i am one of the guilty ones that have been hiding away for the last months, soley because it was my choice to have a break from photography and concentrate on the family for a while, although i have popped in now and again to check things out, and i will admit its sad to see such little activity going on here sometimes as i have never understood that such a great site with so much to offer doesnt attract more like minded folk. As for the constructive critisism and replies to posted images i have to agree, that although its frustrating that it always seems that its yours truly that always seems to comment and get little back, this happens on alot of forums and alot of the time beginners, and people with a love for a certain genre of photography in particular find it hard, and sometimes feel not qualified to pass comment thinking they dont know enough of a certain subject to give their opinions on it, silly i know but its true, thats not to say that there are people that just cant be bothered and fail to contribute.
Unfortunately this is an avenue that will be hard to rectify, im afraid the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink" comes to mind here.

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Take only pictures, Leave only footprints, kill only time.
www.bevbarkerphotos.com
www.k9imageworld.com

Darren

So true, and well said!

There is plenty of traffic here at VIG, as people continue to come here to download software and view photos, however, it is up to the members how much community they want to bring into this. The photo blog has always been and will always be a free service, so if members want to bring more value into it, please do so. VIG are the developers of it, but not the decision makers on how active members should be - this is all up to every single member. We would of course enjoy to see more people take advantage of this service, as tips and tricks has never ruined anything, nor has a compliment or general banter for that matter.

Being in a community is all about how much you want to put into it - nothing normally leads to nothing, engagement normally leads to a lot more fun and a lot more learning.

To wrap it up, if I was a horse I would drink the water!

__________________
Project manager
Visualizer Image Group

"Don't judge yourself on how far you have come,
It's better to get somewhere than nowhere"

Paddy

I just had to pop by and comment on this thread. I have not posted a picture on here since April this year. Why? Is it because of lack of support, is it because I didn’t like the comments I was getting? Not at all. The simple reason I have not posted is simply due to the fact that I have had so many other things taking my time and energy, photography has had to take a back seat. This is not uncommon for me, I tend to come and go with most things I do.

However, I have carefully read ParaMan’s post and the replies to it and, without being judgmental or commenting on individuals I would like to say a few words, those that know me know that I rarely stop at a few but here goes....

First of all, and I have said this before, I cannot understand why The Visualizer Image Group forum isn’t the most used in the world of photography forums simply because the services, software and facilities offered by VIG are world class and way above any other forum I have been on. No where else can photographers of any ability come together and share pictures like they can here and it just keeps getting better. The use of the ‘Blogs’ enables people to find other users pictures so easily and to not only look at the latest pics but to look back through older postings. Try doing that on any of the other forums, it is a nightmare trying to find old postings.

In any group of people or community, there will always be the confident ones who speak out and put their views forward. Human nature dictates that these will inevitably be in the minority. The majority of participants in any society will take part but keep quiet. There is nothing wrong with that, as I have said, it is human nature.

With regard to writing a critique on others pictures, some can do it, some cannot. It never is easy to critique a picture no matter what your experience. You also have to remember that a critique and a comment are two very different things. Simply saying “Great shot” is a comment and, in many cases it is a comment made for the sake of it.

A critique is a structured opinion on a picture based on the viewers perception of the image coloured by their own knowledge and tastes. However it is offered, and however it is taken, the bottom line is that a critique always comes down to being a single individuals opinion. I don’t care how skillfully it is put together or how high, or low the viewer is with regard to their own ability, it is still their opinion.

The recipient of a critique has the right to take that opinion and accept it or totally disregard it. After all, the hobby of photography is about creating images we like. If others like them as well, it’s a bonus, if not, so what? One of the tough things in life is that if you put your self forward for comment or critique, you may not like what you hear. fact of life, get used to it.

However. If someone looked at a picture of mine that I was particularly proud of and gave it a simply negative critique, it would hurt for a while but then I would let it go because anyone who only has negative comments has two problems. One, they don’t really know what they are talking about. If they did, they would have added some positives as well either as what parts of the picture were not so bad or advice on how to improve the image. Two, they may just enjoy having a downer on people because they cannot do the job themselves. In this case the recipient should feel sorry for the person writing the critique as they have nothing to offer anyone or themselves.

What I personally find the most frustrating is the empty superlatives. The “great shot”, “nice image”, “good capture” type comments. Now don’t get me wrong. I am not for one moment suggesting that these comments are not given in good faith or that they are not well meant. I know, from the people who give them that they are indeed heartfelt comments and are often given in a supportive manor. It is just that sometimes, when an image has taken a while to get and it has been polished to what I feel to be perfection and I am just bursting with pride as I click the upload button, all it gets is “nice shot”. Is this me being vain? Of course it is, I am human, I have a hobby that is structured around artistic interpretation and I want people to cover me in praise....... well, no, I don’t actually but it would be nice every now and again lol.

I think, and forgive me if I am wrong, that in all my postings on this forum, ParaMan is the only person who has given me what I would class as a true critique. Many others have been very supportive and have given very constructive comments. But as far as true critique goes, it has mainly been down to him. Has he always given me a good critique? Certainly not. Has he always given me a honest critique, I believe he has. Has he ever upset me? No, not really. Have I always agreed with him? most certainly not. Have I appreciated his time and effort to make a critique be it favorable or not? ALWAYS, always because I read, I take from the critique what I need to move forward and I disregard what I personally do not find suits my style or what I want to achieve. But above all else, I learn. Not just because it is ParaMan, but I learn from every comment or critique.

My Grandfather had a favorite saying when he judged peoples work, he was a master carpenter, he used to say that “If you gave a man a piano and left him with it on a desert island, there would come a time he would convince himself he could play the piano. It is only when he came back to civilisation and played in front of an audience that his ability would be known.” I think this is so true of photography. without others we cannot learn, move forward, become artists. In isolation, we can only please ourselves and for the vanity of an artist, that will never be enough.

So, what is the problem and more importantly, what is the solution.

I think the problem is that people, no matter how dedicated, well meaning or gifted, can only give so much. There is simply a limit to how many pictures you can comment on in a constructive way. When the volume of postings goes up, the number of comments will fall simply because of the enormity of the task of commenting in a constructive way is too much. At that stage the “Great shot” comment may be all that can be mustered.

Another problem is that not every posting is a picture seeking critique. Sometimes a picture is posted simply for the sake of sharing. Sharing is one of the big criteria of VIG and it is the ability to share that has been the basis of the Photo Blogs. Correct me if this is wrong Darren. If I take a picture of a nice view, an unusual event, a marching band parade, one or both of my dogs or something along those lines, I am not looking for critique. I am sharing in the hope that some of the pleasure it gave me at the time rubs of on others. Sometimes we take pictures just for fun and long may that continue.

However. Sometimes I plan a shot, do my upmost to execute it to the best of my ability. Prepare it for viewing by editing it to get the image I was after. Then, and only then, do I submit that picture to my peers for them to look at, advise, critique or comment in a way that will let me know if I have achieved what I was hoping for. A good picture. I would not expect everyone to like it, I would not expect everyone to be kind. What I would expect, for a critique, is respect, honesty and advice. “It’s a crap picture” is not a critique it is simply a wast of four words.

Some people specialise in particular styles of photography and some of these styles can, to some eyes, be extreme and may not be understood by people viewing them. This is fine. If in writing a critique you find yourself sounding negative because you do not like the style, then say so. That way you justify your comments. Just make sure that you don’t misjudge an image simply because you personally don’t like the technique. For example. In the old days of darkroom printing, it became popular to do what is known as solorisation. Now, I personally didn’t like it. I couldn’t see the point in it but that didn’t make it wrong. In those cases I would comment something like, “I cannot really offer constructive criticism of the picture as it is a style I do not understand or appreciate”

However, I loved soft moody, heavy grained pictures that many in todays digital age hate. Good grainy images cannot be done right on digital anyway, no editing will ever match film grain. Knowing this does not stop me from trying to emulate it though, in fact my last two posts are, I feel, good examples of this technique. I posted them on another forum at the same time and someone said “Did you use your Nikon for this shot? It is terribly noisy”..... I didn’t reply to them.

Solution? I don’t know but I would say that I believe that there should be some way of identifying on a posting that the photographer is actually wanting critique. I personally thing that the majority of images posted are simply for sharing and comment is sufficient. But I know, from some of my own images that I have posted, that I would have liked a way of indicating that I was requesting critique.

I think this could be achieved by being able to activate a symbol when you post the image that would indicate critique was required and that this would be built into the search or filtering system. This would achieve two things. One, it would ensure that all the pics that were being posted simply for sharing and the usual comments would not be perhaps overly commented on with regard to the photography as much as the subject. Two, it would enable those who are willing to write constructive criticism to focus on the images where the author actually wanted it.

I know for a fact that for many photographers these days, forums such as this are vital for communication, sharing and community. VIG has the best tools around for that aim and deserves to go from strength to strength. It isn’t always possible for everyone to be active, much as I am sure people like me who tend to disappear for months then come back would otherwise wish it.

It will always fall to ‘the few’ to do the commenting and the day to day support of forums, this is the same everywhere. All I can say is that the more supportive, diverse and understanding forums become, the more active people will become.

Anyone still awake????????

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MyDigipics.co.uk

MorphuX

That was a very well though out and worded comment Paddy. Nicely said, and I think make some very good arguments.

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There are 10 types of people in the world today;
those that understand binary, and those that dont.

Julianne

And Paddy is right that one of the principles here is sharing. I personally enjoy seeing the progress in people's skills as time goes on, and I've noticed that if they are encouraged by others they tend to improve much more quickly. Of course, that is true in all things really. There is a difference between encouragement and criticism to be sure, and when someone is newer at something criticism can become overwhelming.

Critiquing when done positively is encouragement. Critiquing when done negatively just sounds like criticism.